Evolution VS Creationism

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Postby Tediz » Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:49 am

Doc 42 wrote:
Uhh... I already said it was a joke. No need to explain it to me. And I didn't say that Bunnies never grow faster than each other :shock: .

... No offense but you're making me feel like an idiot.



No offence taken, or meant my good friend. The bunnies were an example. Joke or no Joke, you posted it in the dreaded evo v Creationism topic. You could say "ha! Creationism is false because George bush believes in it! and he is ALWAYS wrong!" And people would take you completely seriously.

edit: And Cs, quiet you D: <


Okay then :wink:
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Postby Giratina93 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:55 am

I, for one, am a Creationist. I find the theory that God, who has been here from the beggining, is still alive and will be forever, creating everything we see around us, to be far more likely than a fireball, which no one seems to be able to explain how it got there in the first place, randomly exploded, and somhow created the Universe, when the Second Law of Therodynamics states that all systems tend to, over time, become more chaotic and less orderly. I believe in evolution(lower case e) in which small changes occur over time, but not in Evolution(capitol e)In which:

1. All life developed from the primordial soup.

2. Man evolved from apes.

3. Fish>Amphibions>Reptiles>Mammals.

Evidence against Evolution:

1. The fossil record shows no transition fossils. Archaeopteryx, which Evolutionists say is a transitional fossil, is actually a Mosaic, or a creature God designed that is fully this, while showing ingenuity in God's creation by giving it features of other kinds of animals. A true Transition fossil sequence, which shows a secuence of fossils in order from primitive to complete with all stages inbetween, has never been found.

2. The "Geological Timescale" is never completly there in any place on Earth. It is only theorized by Geologists. There's always at least one layer that's missing, say the Devonian, or the Permian, or the Eocene. Also, somtimes, "Older" layers of rock are found on top of "Younger" layers. Trees have been found that burst through several rock layers, suggesting that the layers were deposited swiftly in unison, rather than millions of years.

3. If Evolution was real, then how come we, as Humans, are the only being that can truly comprehend Beauty? Evolutionists insist that the bad stuff about us---War, Gangs, and murder---come from our brutal animal ancestors. If's that so, then where did the good in us--- Beauty, our abilit to invent things, our ability to go against our instincts when we know that they're wrong--- come from? And if we are nothing more than unimportant things that arose from monkeys, then why do we care about this subject, or be on this board in the first place, or anything for that matter?

Evidence for Creation:

1. The Earth is situated just right for life to exist. Any bigger, no life. Any smaller, no life. Any farther, no life. any closer, no life. The fact that the Earth is just right for life to exist points to a Creator.

2. Many creatures are designed so perfectly for their environment, that if even one of their traits was altered in any way, they couldn't survive. The Termite is only able to digest wood because of small bacteria in its gut, which will die from Oxgen if placed outside the gut. How else can these 2 things exist together without a Creator to put the Bacteria in the Termite's gut? Woodpeckers are wonderfley designed for their job. They have a shock pad in their forhead, which helps the Woodpecker not get headaches. It also has its feet designed to clamp on the side of trees. Finally, its tongue, being as long as the Woodpecker,starts in the back of the head, wraps around the back of its skull before entering the left nostril and resting in the mouth. If even one of these things was changed just a tiny bit, the Woodpecker could not survive.

One argument that people use against Creation is that, "If God created everything perfectly, then why is the world full of death of suffering?" This question drove Darwin from Atheist to Evolutionist. The answer is that, when Adam sinned, sin entered the world. So too, did death and desiese. For more info, please read Genesis chapter3.

Also, Scientists have tried for decades to make Evolution happen. They have breed countless generations of fruitflys and Bacteria, yet never have they turned a Fly into somthing else or make Bacteria evolve into somthing higher. Any mutations that did occur always harmed them, never did they benefit them.

That's all I have to say on this.
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Postby C S » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:07 am

3. If Evolution was real, then how come we, as Humans, are the only being that can truly comprehend Beauty? Evolutionists insist that the bad stuff about us---War, Gangs, and murder---come from our brutal animal ancestors. If's that so, then where did the good in us--- Beauty, our abilit to invent things, our ability to go against our instincts when we know that they're wrong--- come from? And we are nothing more than unimportant things that arose from monkeys, then why do we care about this subject, or be on this board in the first place?

Its called the human brain. Highly tuned after millions of years of Evolution


The Earth is situated just right for life to exist. Any bigger, no life. Any smaller, no life. Any farther, no life. any closer, no life. The fact that the Earth is just right for life to exist points to a Creator.

There are billions of planets in the universe. Earth cant possibly be the only life bearing planet, and if that is the fact, then god must be really bored, making billions of planets- only one with life and he doesnt even help things out.

Also, Scientists have tried for decades to make Evolution happen. They have breed countless generations of fruitflys and Bacteria, yet never have they turned a Fly into somthing else or make Bacteria evolve into somthing higher. Any mutations that did occur always harmed them, never did they benefit them.

They have too done this. A primitive orginsim from the sea had one chamber hearts. Scientists replicating natrual situations in which mutations occur made it develop a two chambered heart that worked, helping that orginism. And for the record, evolution is the process of having the most fit individuals survive and mate. If one individual, lets say fish, had a mutation in it's fin to make it almost "hand like" and it mated, that gene would be passed on and over millions of years, the first amphibion may develop, and did, they exist today, no?

Proof against creationism

1. No evidense of god. The bible isnt proof, for the "original" copy doesnt exist today, and thus we cant say if god wrote it.

2. The bible controdicts it's self beyond belief. For example, god must have made hell before Lucifer betrayed him, God being all knowing must've have known that would happen before it actually did. So hell is made and waiting for lucy. Lucy goes against god and is banished to Earth. Whats this?! Adam and Eve! God said they brought sin tothe world! But he was stupid enough to banish the devil to a perfect world! I say, in the story of kale and abel, god gets mad at kale for not accepting resposibillity for his crime of killing his brother. God is a hypocrit, blaming the advent of sin on his creations when he shouldve went "me being all knowing should have known this would have happened.."
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Postby Giratina93 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:22 am

Compy Scavenger wrote:2. The bible controdicts it's self beyond belief. For example, god must have made hell before Lucifer betrayed him, God being all knowing must've have known that would happen before it actually did. So hell is made and waiting for lucy. Lucy goes against god and is banished to Earth. Whats this?! Adam and Eve! God said they brought sin tothe world! But he was stupid enough to banish the devil to a perfect world! I say, in the story of kale and abel, god gets mad at kale for not accepting resposibillity for his crime of killing his brother. God is a hypocrit, blaming the advent of sin on his creations when he shouldve went "me being all knowing should have known this would have happened.."


God has planned everything out from the start. no one knows his motives, but He has a plan for everything, even the Devil has been used for good by God. Nowhere in the Bible does it mention anyone before Adam and Eve named Lucy. You might ask, "But why didn't he just destroy Satan in the first place, or obliterate sin when it occured?" God does everything his way. He had made a covenant with Adam in which the seed of the Woman(Humanity) would crush the seed of the serpent(Satan). That was fulfilled on the Cross. And God chose Able's sacrifice over Cains because Cain thought he could get paraise from God by quanity. Able's sacrifice was one of Sacrifice and Salvation.
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Postby Spiketopus ಠ,ಠ » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:30 am

Hmm... I don't know what to think.
On one hand, I'd say it's the creation of someone, in other ways who would have created this little particle who evoluted into a universe?

On the other hand, I'd say everything begins with a little particle who created the universe. Other little particles start appearing (from where?) on Earth and these begin to evolute and look like little creatures. Little creatures start evoluing and begins to look like fishes who start walking on Earth to become lizards and later dinosaurs.

But I don't know why dinosaurs disappeared so speedy... :?
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Postby C S » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:34 am

Gira....CAIN KILLED ABLE

how would salvation come from a sin?!

Oh wait, another biblical controdiction
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Postby Giratina93 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:41 am

CS... try to look at it in a diffrent way. Cain killed Able because of sin. Sin had already taken its toll on the world. God had a plan for Cain. Despite the fact that he killed his brother, God was merficul to Cain and put a mark on his head so that no one would harm him. Able's sacrifice, was one of bloodshed, and one that God likes. God is a jealous God. He says that in Exodus chapter 12. The Cain vs. Able scenario was there to show that already, things were going pretty bad. Before, Adam had sinned, and one generation later, his children were killing each other.

Look, the Bibles not a History book. It is a book about Salvation. However, then the Bible does a bit of History book stuff, Archeological digs have proven the Bible true everytime. For instance, people didn't think that the book of Daniel was fact because it mentioned the names of people that scolars thought didn't exist, Later, though, finds have proven that those kings and other people did exist.

But I don't know why dinosaurs disappeared so speedy...


No one knows for sure. theories abound from Asteroid impacts to the conditions on Earth after the Flood being so severe, that many creatures, including Dinosaurs, died out.

CS, one last thing. You never truly explained where that fireball, the main thing necessary for life to occur, came from. Can you explain how vision could have evolved gradually, step-by-step?



Its called the human brain. Highly tuned after millions of years of Evolution


Can you show me some hard core, physical evidence to support that statement?

In every Evolutionary Biology book I've read, Evolutionists have never even attempted to explain where our ability to comprehend true beauty came from. Nor have they tried to explain how the senses came about. Why? Because they couldn't explain how they came about. The senses are so complex that they couldn't have evolved gradually.

The thing about the scientists turning a 1 chambered heart into a 2 chambered heart is not proof of Evolution. Evolution required blind, random processes while what the scientists did was a guided, intelligent, intervention of things.

One last thing. The chances of DNA forming the right kind of sequence for it to operate is 1 out of 10.. followed by 147 zeros! this was worked out by a mathematician whos name I cannot remember. he also said that, in the history of the Universe, there only has been 1 out of 10.. followed by 78 zeros DNA key chains. The chances of DNA randomly getting the right sequence is near impossible.
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Postby C S » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:56 am

Quantum physics : Sub atomic explosions that are always happening, many times stronger than the atom bomb, the energy released and reabsorbed rappidly, discovered when scientists looked at atoms, expecting a smooth "orbit" in the electron cloud found that the orit was ragged and chaotic. Now imagine this happening, but not being reabsorbed. I give you the big bang
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Postby Giratina93 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:07 am

Alright then, Why aren't there Big Bangs occuring all the time, then?

Where are the transition fossils that Evolutionists have looked for for 150 years, but have failed to find?

If Evolution is true, Why haven't Scientists found a sequence of fossils, showing reptiles evolving into birds, in order from primitive to complete, all in the same site?
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Postby Evil Eye » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:08 am

*groan* who woke this up again, i didnt think id have to argue here again. CS, want some back up? No one believed in the existence of the atom before einstein proved that. And just because scientists havent discovered why we have senses and the stuff you said about beauty, just because they have not found it out in the short span of the human lifetime, does not mean the explanation doesnt exist. And i read that the big bang may have really been a big bounce, but it will take WAY too long to explain here. ill do it in parts if anybody wants to hear it...

EDIT: As for your last question, they would never be around the same site, this doesnt happen over a few thousand years, it takes billions, along with the fact that barely any creatures get fossilized out of all of them that die. There is no real proof of creationism. But scientists have found things like birds being the direct descendants of dinosaurs, the fact that humans and chimpanzees share 99% of the same DNA, etc
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Postby TyrannoTitan » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:54 am

Gira: Because it isn't like "Dinosaur...dinosaur...dinosaur...BIRD!"

The transitional fossils haven't been found because it occurred via adaptations that kept adding on slowly. Basically mutations, which means that compared to dinosaurs and birds, the transitional fossils are almost impossible to find. Why? Because there was a TINY amount of them.

And despite your beliefs, yes, Archaeopteryx is a transitional animal, to some extent. You cannot say "Because God did blah blah" to argue its not. Scientists know a lot more then you, and therefore they are a more reliable source.

Also, what would any SANE person think?

Evolution: Half Dinosaur, Half Bird, acting as the transition between the two kinds of animals.

Creation: GOD MADE IT LOOK LIKE A DINOSAUR BECAUSE ITS COOL.

Ya...no. Use FACTS for your argument, not "God did this, God said that"...

If Evolution is true, Why haven't Scientists found a sequence of fossils, showing reptiles evolving into birds, in order from primitive to complete, all in the same site?


Why haven't Creationists found proof of God, heaven, or hell? Why haven't they told God to come to Atheists to make them believe? Why don't we have any evidence for God? And don't say the Bible; that was 2000 years ago, it could've been some nutcase talking about voices in the sky, so its not AT ALL a reliable source.
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Postby C S » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:10 am

Gira, your question has already been answered

Sub atomic explosions that are always happening, many times stronger than the atom bomb, the energy released and reabsorbed rappidly

Thats why we dont have a big bang every second

my question to you is "what the hell are you talking about"

Jealous god? Ill ask the same thing I asked RL : Do you know anything about what your debating?! God punished Cain because he killed Abel who was, in god's eyes the favor out of the two (ya know, envy, one of the 7 deadly sins!?) and Cain didnt take responsibillity for himself, which pissed god off. But this contradicts the fact he brought sin into the world and blamed Adam and Eve for it. Oh, how do you know god has a plan? Because someone told you? Why dont you ask that person and the answer they'll say is "the bible"

which, for us, isnt evidense
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Postby Giratina93 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:22 am

Well, I guess i'm a horrible debator, But I know at least one thing for certain:

Both Christianity and Evolution are religions: Both rely on faith. One relys on faith that an all-knowing, all powerful creator made us and the Universe, the other relys on faith that everything around us is the result of blind chance and gradual change. Scientists call somthing "Scientific" if theyy can prove it with the 5 senses (I think) and if the can prove it with experiments. Meteorology is scientific because you can use the 5 senses to study the weather. Evolution is a theory in that no one can make life evolve from nothing. Nothing comes from nothing and produces nothing. For life to have come about, there must have already been life to make it. No one has seen the Evolutionary process in action, and no one has seen God create the Universe. No one can make a fly turn into somthing else; after decades of reserch with multitudes of generations of fruitflys, Scientists have failed to turn a fruitfly into somthing else. No one can go back in time and watch the Big Bang. No one can turn back the clock to witness God creating everything. Thus, the only" Evidence" we have for either one is circumstancial evidence that can be interpreted for either side.

Because it isn't like "Dinosaur...dinosaur...dinosaur...BIRD!"


Didn't Scientists have at one point somthing called the "Hopeful Monster" theory in which from a dinosaur egg, a fully formed bird emerges? I remember hearing it somwhere..

Most of my argument is based off what Ken Ham teaches at the Creation Musuem.
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Postby TyrannoTitan » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:28 am

Didn't Scientists have at one point somthing called the "Hopeful Monster" theory in which from a dinosaur egg, a fully formed bird emerges? I remember hearing it somwhere..


...No.

Second, FINCHES. Lets look at the documents that act as "evidence" for both. You have the Bible, filled with ramblings of things we can never prove or see, then you have Darwin's Origin of Species, documenting the Galapagos Islands, where there were around 4-5 different types of finches. All finches, but VERY different from each other. One difference from this and the Bible: YOU CAN GO THERE AND SEE THE FINCHES! THAT is evidence, the Bible isn't.

Also, in Japan, they actually created a new species of fish. In actuality, its the same as the original species, but its bones GLOW, and you can see them from the outside. So yes, we have proved Evolution.
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Postby C S » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:30 am

Gira, you have no idea how retarded you just made your self sound

Both Christianity and Evolution are religions: Both rely on faith

You can keep your faith, I just need proof. Your certain god's up there (He's quite lazy isnt he? Watching people die and sh*t) why dont you send out a prayer and ask him to light the tree in the back yard on fire with a lightning bolt, or better yet, create a giant talking rock, he CAN do anything right?

and for the love of god (NO IRONY) AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SAW THAT DAMNED DOCUMENTRY!? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ayzPq9bca8

Watch it out, fill your delairiously closed head with logic
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Postby Giratina93 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:45 am

TT, the flinches ALREADY had the information needed to make changes. The flinches that Darwin obserbed are all slight varients of the basic Flinch kind. In fact, recent studys of the Flinches on the Galopagos suggest that the diffrent species of Flinches are interbreeding with each other, lowering the species. This suggest that the Flinches are just sub-species, thus, they aren't evolving. Natural Selection doesn't equal Evolution. Natural Selection is only fit individuals survuving. Evolution is a random, unguided, process in which one creature turns into another over a long period of time.

As for the glowy fish, That isn't Evolution. Evolution is unguided, and random. Here's an example:

Suppose there's a chief who wants to prove that, by random, unguided processes, a cake can form. It's acceptable if he drops off whole plants--- Wheat, FLour, etc.--- by a river bank, then leaves them there for nature to take over. But we start to worry when he brings in the ingredients theselves. We shake our heads when he puts the ingredients in an oven, to "speed up the process, and we leave him for good when he measures out the ingredients and puts them in the oven for the necessary time alloted.

The point is, what the scientists did to the fish wasn't Evolution, It was an Intelligent Designer remodeling an already existing creature.

CS, God isn't "Scientific". There is no absolute proof that points to him existing other than the Bible, which I'll leave out of this discussion.

I'm done now. Again, this information is from Ken Ham.
I am leaving this thread due to m arguments being worthless, and me unable to bring up any good points.
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Postby C S » Sat Jan 10, 2009 5:56 am

Gira, your post there, makes little sense

The finshes on the galapagos are variations of one finch species. The finshes best suited to their enviroment will be the most constant, and somethimes to be best suited to an enviroment, a genetic change has o occu, a mutation that gives one orginsim an edge so it can mate and pass on the edge to the next generation. THAT my challenged friend, is evolution. You say you dont know if theres a god, and the bible might as well have been written by a mad man, MAN. You can go on believing in "god" I just want proof that he exists, and you- or any one else, cant give me that proof, so until fruther notice, he doesnt exist to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeTssvexa9s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nj587d5ies
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Postby TyrannoTitan » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:03 am

Natural Selection = Survival of the Fittest.

Evolution = Traits that are spread throughout a species that aids them in survival.

Adaptations lead to evolution. You can't believe in one and not the other. All the scientists did was introduce the glowing bones into the population of fish. After generations and generations, that trait spread to ALL of the fish. Even though its fairly useless in survival, they still evolved into the glowing skeleton.

And the Finches have different beak structure, some have long beaks for picking out insects, and others have large beaks to crack nuts. THAT is evolution, not just "different finches". They all lived on the same island, and they evolved apart to fit their needs. They EVOLVED from original finches.

Like I said, Evolution has FACTS, the Bible has FICTION.
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Postby Giratina93 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:08 am

Alright.

I give up . Both you and TT give far better evidence for your cases than I can. My arguments are garbage, and I am an uderequipped Creationist. It's like a guy brings a knife to a fight against 2 gus with flamethrowers. I do have to admit, though. It is great to see my opponents at leastplaying fairly in this age of name calling between Creationists and Evolutionists.

I cannot give any proof of God, because none exists other than hints of his existance through the beaut of the Earth. The only thing that says that God exists in the first place is the Bible, which you two think is outdated and inaccurate due to it's age. No Creationist can prove with concrete evidence that God exists. Evolutionists cannot prove through concrete evidence that the Big Bang took place, yet they claim it happened. I, too, believe in God, despite no concrete evidence to support it.

Uh TT, can you provide 2 examples of fiction in the Bible?
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Postby TyrannoTitan » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:22 am

I actually believe in God, just because I would like there to be an all powerful presence, just to know someone was looking out for me. That is MY CHOICE, and I don't believe a word of the Bible, besides God existing as well as Jesus.

Evolutionists can't prove the Big Bang happened, but the basic elements of Evolution, they can prove.

And as for your question:

First, Adam & Eve and the wonderful world of Incest.

Second, an old man parting the sea and herding a city's population through it.
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